 | Charley and Shirley discuss a Feraghan |
CHARLEY: Guilty. Addicted.
SHIRLEY: Mad, but not crazy.
ORR: Charley...
SHIRLEY: ...with an ey. Charlie, with an ie, is our second son.
| Charley and Shirley discuss a Feraghan |
CHARLEY: Again, guilty as charged.
ORR: What was the motivation for getting into oriental rugs?
SHIRLEY: The motivation was, in two words, cold floors. We had
just bought the house.
CHARLEY: This very house.
SHIRLEY: It didn't have any carpeting. We didn't have any money.
CHARLEY: That was in 1959. I began braiding rugs.
SHIRLEY: We needed floor covering.
CHARLEY: Shirley's mother helped. I was teaching psychology. I would
come home after work and braid rugs until one or two o'clock in the morning.
SHIRLEY: Chuck was always interested in art: color, design, that kind of thing.
CHARLEY: Then in 1961 a colleague at work, who knew of my interest in art, asked
me why I didn't get interested in oriental rugs. I told her I had never seen one. She pointed
out a rug shop where she had gotten some rugs. She said she had also gotten some rugs
at garage sales. Dirt cheap. Nobody wanted them. She said, "You would be interested in them."
ORR: Shirley, were you involved in collecting from the start?
SHIRLEY: Oh, yes. Absolutely. From the very beginning. In fact, I was responsible for our
very first rug.
ORR: We were just going to ask about your first rug.
SHIRLEY: We had finally gotten enough money to buy a rug, and we went out and bought a big
white rug for the living room.
CHARLEY: Nylon!
SHIRLEY: That was a crazy thing to do, what with young children. My mother said, "You know,
I've got an old, worn-out rug that your father bought at an auction. If you turn it upside down, you
could put it in front of the sofa where's there's a lot of foot traffic." Gratefully, we took the rug. We were so excited.
ORR: What kind was it?
CHARLEY: We knew nothing, zilch. We got books from the library and began reading.
SHIRLEY: We looked and looked and looked and began narrowing it down. We decided
it had to be something like the Turkomans in the books.
CHARLEY: It was such a rag, but one end was in its original condition. It had been folded over
on itself, and that was the key to its identity. It was a Baluch.
SHIRLEY: In better days, it was a beautiful rug.
CHARLEY: Absolutely beautiful.
SHIRLEY: We learned so much from researching that rug.
CHARLEY: It finally dawned on us that we owned an oriental rug.
SHIRLEY: We were on our way.
ORR: Do you still have that rug?
SHIRLEY: No, we absolutely wore it out. In fact, it was worn out when we got it.
ORR: You were hooked.
Charley and Shirley appreciate a friend's Anatolian flatweave |  |
SHIRLEY: We were scared to death.
ORR: Why was that?
SHIRLEY: Afraid of making a mistake.
CHARLEY: But the auctions were an eye opener.
SHIRLEY: It was nothing to go to an auction and see 20 rugs.
ORR: So you began buying?
CHARLEY: Well, at our first auction, we didn't buy anything. They had a ton of Chinese carpets;
but we weren't especially turned on by them, so we passed.
SHIRLEY: Then at our second auction, which was in a private home, there were fabulous treasures.
The place was jammed with people. The auctioneer went from room to room. In an upstairs bedroom,
we realized we were standing on what looked like an oriental rug, but there were so many people we could
only see a corner of it...
CHARLEY: ...I said, "Gosh, it looks like a Bidjar." So, a woman made an opening bid of $20. We bid $25.
She bid $30. We bid $35. Then the bidding stopped, and we got it for $35.
SHIRLEY: We didn't know what we had bought, but when we got it outside we discovered that it was a 9x12 rug.
CHARLEY: Not in perfect condition, but really great. It was dated 1873. And it really was a Bidjar.
SHIRLEY: It was beautiful, really a fantastic rug. Our daughter Katie still has it.
CHARLEY: Well, after that, we went crazy. We read everything we could get our hands on and began going
to every garage sale and auction that came up. On a typical weekend, we would see 50 rugs, sometimes more!
SHIRLEY: Soon, mania set in. We would say, "If we just could buy 10 rugs, then 50, then 100." When our
collection topped 300, we lost count.
ORR: Typically, what would you pay for a good rug in those days?
CHARLEY: It varied considerably because in those days, nobody wanted them. But often $10 to $20
for a small rug. Sometimes, I would buy rugs I didn't even want -- to learn from.
SHIRLEY: I remember that we once paid $200 for a room size carpet in great condition. We were in
shock at our extravagance for days.
ORR: We understand that in those days, good rugs frequently turned up in the trash. Did you ever find
one in the trash?
CHARLEY: No, but we did find one in a garage covered with oil. We rescued that one. But we bought
many of them for almost nothing. We seemed to be among the few crazy enough to buy old oriental rugs.
SHIRLEY: In fact, those early experiences conditioned us and set us up for turning down some wonderful
rugs because we had come to expect everything to be dirt cheap.
CHARLEY: We made a lot of mistakes.
ORR: But that's how you learn.
SHIRLEY: Exactly.
ORR: Your collection was acknowledged as one of the finest in Southern California. Tell us about it.
 | Charley fondles a Chinese pillar carpet |
ORR: Out of all those rugs, was there a favorite, or one was that more special than the rest?
SHIRLEY: That's like asking which one of your children do you like best.
CHARLEY: No, no, that one's easy. Actually, there were two, both bought within the first year of our
collecting period. One was a Fereghan. The first time Arthur Jenkins came to visit us, he sat for what seemed like
hours looking at that rug. He absolutely loved it. The other was a very rare Daghestan prayer rug.
ORR: What made it special?
CHARLEY: Color, drawing, wool, condition, rarity. Everybody who came to our house said it was the
best rug they had ever seen.
ORR: Do you still have those rugs?
CHARLEY: Yes.
ORR: Are you still collecting?
CHARLEY: No, we quit collecting years ago.
SHIRLEY: It used to be my job, by the way, every morning to read the classifieds in anticipation
of seeing rugs for sale.
ORR: Is it fair to say that when you saw an ad in those days -- unlike today -- you could be pretty sure
that it was for an old rug?
SHIRLEY: Yes. Not always good, of course, but almost always old.
ORR: What do you feel are the characteristics of a great rug?
CHARLEY: Well, first, for me, it must have some history to it. Then, the same characteristics that
made the Daghestan so great.
SHIRLEY: ...plus the intangible quality that makes the rug speak to you.
ORR: You've bought hundreds of rugs. Tell us about the one that got away?
CHARLEY: Actually there were two worth mentioning. I was at an auction with some friends.
A rare Moghan came up, and I hesitated too long. The hammer came down and the rug went to people
behind me. It was worth between $7,000 and $9,000, and they had bought it for $1,200. Early in my collecting,
I turned down a pair of Chi Chi saddle bags for $60. Too expensive! Later, I kicked myself, but it was too late.
I never saw another pair like them.
ORR: Was there ever a time when your principal motivation was to buy for investment?
CHARLEY: Never.
ORR: You spoke of Arthur Jenkins. How did you meet him?
CHARLEY: A student brought me a Sunday supplement from The St. Louis Post Dispatch, dated November 22,
1964. On the cover was a picture of Arthur Jenkins. He was called the "Mascoutah Magic Rug Man."
SHIRLEY: We wrote a letter to him but didn't get a reply.
CHARLEY: Finally, he called us from Los Angles where he was on business. He didn't seem interested
until I mentioned that we had two Bergama kilim strips. He said, "I'll come right away." Then on the weekend, -- this
was in 1965 -- we went out looking for rugs and saw in a shop a rug which the dealer called a 16th century Tabriz.
I don't know why I felt it wasn't Persian. Anyway, Jenkins bought it. He let me keep it overnight. I buried myself in a
mountain of books and stayed up all night researching that rug in every book I owned -- then a considerable number -- and
decided it had to be a 17th century Ghiordes prayer rug. It turned out that I was right, and he was elated. Later he sent
me a 1930s exhibition catalog from the Detroit Museum of Art with that same rug identified as a 17th century Ghiordes.
Incidentally, that rug was on the wall behind Jenkins in a picture from a 1968 Fortune article on him and other prominent,
business executive/collector types. We also have that article right here.
ORR: So, Jenkins came to your home often?
CHARLEY: Yes, he said this was one of the best areas to collect rugs.
ORR: Why was that?
CHARLEY: Because so many service people, who had traveled all over the world and who had brought back
rugs, retired here. Up until about 1973, almost nobody here was interested in oriental rugs.
ORR: Then Jenkins became a friend?
SHIRLEY: And mentor. Our great teacher.
CHARLEY: One of our great teachers. Experience was another. Study still another.
SHIRLEY: I have an amusing letter here. May I read it?
ORR: Of course.
SHIRLEY: It is to Charley from Arthur D. Jenkins, editor and publisher, dated March 24, 1967, at Mascoutah, Illinois,
just after we had bought two fabulous pieces of antique furniture.
"Dear Nouveau Riche:
My pupil has learned well. He pilfers more handily than his teacher. People come to him and sell him a pound of gold for a pound of silver. You have arrived.
Now you must, while at home, dress in black tie, dinner coat and affect an accent. People think a man knows more if he has an accent.
I should like to be more offensive. It is the only way I can express my admiration, envy, jealousy and plain unhappiness.
Somewhere, I am sure, that if you will study your furniture you will find an early Sears mark...
It was simply great and I am glad. I cannot brag this year. I have lived a useful life, devoted to the welfare of humans and I have been kind and noble. I know of only one way to get back at you and it will be merely a pitiful attempt. St. Louis is sponsoring a flight to London and Paris to celebrate Lindberg's flight. The only time in history the French will welcome tourists is when we arrive. Each French celebrant will have his hand in our pocket at Orley. I am going also to Amsterdam. To Copenhagen. I know where to look. Whom to see. I shall be in rug land. I will tell you nothing because I do not expect to buy anything. But I sure as hell will be knowledgeable, sophisticated, amusing, traveled and a man about the world.
This happens in May. I plan to go back on my own in August. The entire British Isles only.
But even this trip cannot make up for my deep bitter jealousy over what you have acquired. It is wonderful. I know of only one person I think is more entitled to the gems you bought. I am not having high blood pressure over the rugs. Pfoof! It is the furniture!
And since you're down there you might as well keep on and let your luck run. You can always get rags. You and your Queen Ann furniture! Do you have an unexpurgated Random House Dictionary? It doesn't have the words in it I was told it would. Cheated.
Now that you have become a public man, skilled in the arts, admired, hated, looked up to, you will have to learn to conduct yourself as the rest of we [sic] Public characters. There must always be a semblance of reserve. Practice bowing to the ladies and kissing their hand. I exxed out plural hands. The meaning is different. When you bow to kiss one hand you are merely after her rugs or furniture.
You must live this new role of yours to the hilt. It can get you into a lot of trouble. In that case you can move to another city.
I trust your wife will be able to keep you in tow, under control and will, from time to time, remind you of your early days when you didn't know how many knots to the inch there is in a Kulikan rug.
My best to all of you.
Sincerely,
Arthur D."
ORR: That's a wonderful letter.
SHIRLEY: Arthur Jenkins had such a marvelous sense of humor.
ORR: You were acquainted with other luminaries of the rug world, were you not?
CHARLEY: Oh, yes. McCoy Jones, most of the collectors on the West Coast, many across the country.
One of the things I remember about McCoy Jones is that he did not like rugs with imperfections. That is probably
why he liked much of our collection.
ORR: You must have become well-known here as an authority on oriental rugs.
CHARLEY: I had a major exhibit at our local museum and also appraised rugs for them. And collectors sought
my opinions and solicited my advice.
ORR: I expect they still do!
CHARLEY: Yes.
ORR: Was security ever a concern?
CHARLEY: Yes!
SHIRLEY: (to Charley) Do we want to talk about that?
CHARLEY: Well...
ORR: We thought that if you had a problem, telling about it might be instructive to others.
CHARLEY: Yes. Well, I'll give you an abbreviated version of what happened. In the early days, the house
was full of rugs. But now, those that we have left are in a bank vault.
ORR: What caused you to resort to secure storage?
SHIRLEY: On Friday the 13th of June, 1975, I had gone to Santa Barbara to pick up Paul, our eldest son. He had
just finished his first year at the University of California. We were going to be driving back late, and Chuck knew
we were going to be late, so he had gone out to dinner and a movie. We got home about 9 o'clock. At about 9:30,
the doorbell rang. I went to the door and there were some people there who had a rug over their arm. They said
they had been sent by a rug collector whom we knew and who actually worked with my husband. I told them we wouldn't
be interested in the rug. They said they had to let the guy know tonight if we didn't want it and could they use the phone.
I, like an idiot, said sure. The first thing we learned from this is that a dead bolt is only as secure as the idiot behind it.
I opened the dead bolt and the next thing we knew it, Paul and I had guns to our heads. They pistol-whipped us, made
us lie on the floor and kicked us. They walked away with 25 rugs.
CHARLEY: Most of the rugs they stole were world-class rugs.
ORR: Who were these perpetrators?
SHIRLEY: Well, that is what is so horrible. They were local. One of them was a dealer whom we knew and the other
was a collector we considered a friend. He and his wife had been in our home as a dinner guests. We had not the
slightest idea that these people were capable of such acts. These two conspired to hire a third person who hired thugs
who actually did the hit.
CHARLEY: Five months later, the rugs turned up in Germany...
SHIRLEY: ...after some very fine work on the part of the FBI, Interpol, and some pangs of conscience on the part of one
of the perpetrators.
ORR: So you got the rugs back?
SHIRLEY: All but four: two Turkoman pieces and two Mohtashem Kashans. This was at a time when Mohtashem Kashans
were very, very desirable. They were the hottest things on the market.
CHARLEY: One of the Turkomans was a Salor to die for.
ORR: Shirley, it sounds like you almost did.
SHIRLEY: Well, if Chuck and Charlie had been here we might have resisted...
CHARLEY: ...and all of us might have been killed. All three of them had guns.
ORR: How long did the whole sorry episode last?
SHIRLEY: Oh, probably 20 minutes.
ORR: It probably seemed like an eternity.
SHIRLEY: It was the longest 20 minutes of my life! They knew exactly where the rugs were and went right to them.
ORR: What measures did you take after that incident?
CHARLEY: Well, immediately after that, a guy at work said, "Charley, you've got to carry a gun." So, I got a permit
to carry a concealed weapon.
SHIRLEY: We installed a security gate.
CHARLEY: And we got a bank vault.
SHIRLEY: In fact, we still have it...
CHARLEY: ...for the few rugs we have left.
SHIRLEY: But that experience took all of the fun out of collecting. We took everything down from the walls and
removed everything from the house. Soon after that, we began disposing of our collection. The whole world changed
dramatically. We began being very cautious about whom we let in the house.
CHARLEY: We still are!
ORR: Shirley, what about your injuries?
SHIRLEY: They were not life-threatening, but both Paul and I bled profusely. The irony of all this is that a very fine
Nain on the floor was puddled with blood, and when the police got there, they wanted to get us to the hospital right away,
but I said, "We can't go yet. I've got to do something with this rug." So, I soaked towels in the bathtub and put them on the
rug to keep the blood from drying. Sometime later, we unwittingly took the rug for cleaning to the dealer who had conspired
against us. He was all tears, deploring the actions of people who do such things. But he did a beautiful cleaning job.
CHARLEY: And he charged us accordingly.
ORR: Were the criminals ever brought to justice?
SHIRLEY: The collector talked to the FBI and cut a deal. He got off with only six months. But he came to a sorry end.
CHARLEY: He committed suicide. The dealer went to Federal prison for six years.
SHIRLEY: The whole episode was a nightmare.
CHARLEY: Getting the rugs back cost us over $1,800...
SHIRLEY: ...and unimaginable grief.
ORR: There was recently a gang of rug thieves in New England.
CHARLEY: We read about them. They're probably everywhere.
ORR: This certainly suggests that people with rugs should take every precaution.
CHARLEY: I should say so! They should take photographs. Keep good records. Put up passive deterrents,
like walls and fences. Possibly get an electronic security system. Get insurance. Do everything possible for
their own personal safety and the security of their rugs.
ORR: Have you considered writing a book?
CHARLEY: Yes. One day we might get around to that.
ORR: What do you do to occupy your time, now that you are no longer collecting?
SHIRLEY: I retired from teaching English year before last. Now, baby-sitting with the grandchildren takes a lot of my time...
CHARLEY: ...our time!
SHIRLEY: We love it.
CHARLEY: I play the stock market.
ORR: Charley, we see many paintings about with your signature.
CHARLEY: Oh, yes, that's another of my pastimes.
ORR: They're wonderful.
CHARLEY: Thank you.
ORR: We would guess that you have judiciously done your estate planning. We don't mean to be morbid, but can you tell us what provisions you have made, or are contemplating, for the disposition of the remainder of your collection?
CHARLEY: We've already donated a lot of rugs to museums. We might sell a few pieces, but most of what's left is earmarked for our children.
ORR: What advice would you have for persons just starting out in collecting today?
SHIRLEY: Don't open the door to strangers.
(Chuckles.)
CHARLEY: Don't use one book. Read as many as you can. See and handle all the rugs you can. Subscribe to magazines..
. ORR: Like Oriental Rug Review.
(Laughter.)
CHARLEY: Get involved in rug societies. Buy rugs. Make mistakes. Learn from your mistakes.
ORR: Thank you for a fascinating story. There is no doubt in our mind that you, Charley and Shirley Sykes, are,
indeed, "mad about rugs." It's a fine madness!
(This interview was conducted for Oriental Rug Review by Jim Way, who also shot the photos.)
